Chris Guillebeau Interview: Art of Non-Conformity

Recently the Netsetter had the opportunity to speak with Chris Guillebeau of Art of Non-Conformity and Unconventional Guides. Check below the jump for both audio and text versions of Thursday Bram interviewing Chris about himself, his business, and his advice for you.

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TB: Hi, I’m Thursday Bram and I’m here today with Chris Guillebeau. Chris, could you tell us a little about yourself?

CG: Sure, thanks for having me. So, I’m Chris, as you said. And I publish the blog Art of Non-Conformity. I’m a full-time writer and I support myself with a backend business called Unconventional Guides, and in that business, I sell information products about self-employment, and travel, and related topics.

And then I also travel quite a bit myself. I’m trying to visit every country in the world, so I go to about 20 countries a year and I operate the business and do the writing from wherever I am.

TB: So how did you get your business set-up the way that it is? How did you put everything together to allow you to travel as much as you do?

CG: This business actually didn’t begin very strategically, it actually happened quite organically. So I’ve been working for myself for about 10 years, most of my adult life, and I was overseas for 4 of those years as an aide worker in Africa and then I moved back to the States and started the non-conformity blog. And before that I had done a lot of little business things, which we can talk about, but this business grew out of all the questions I was receiving.

I started this blog and I was talking about how I did all this travel stuff and I noticed that people are asking a lot of the same questions over and over. For example, they were asking questions about how you book discount airfare, and how much does it cost, and how do you get around-the-world plane tickets, and use frequent flyer miles, and that kind of stuff.

And so I just decided: Let me try something out and see how people respond. I created my first information product, which was just in an ebook, in the summer of 2008 and I put that out there to see how people would respond. I said that all of the content on my blog is going to continue to be free, of course, and I don’t want to have third-party advertising on my blog, but I also have this ebook and if you’re really interested in travel, maybe you can pick this up as well.

So I started that and people responded really well and a couple months later, I did another guide, got a little more strategic about it, and that guide was called, The Unconventional Guide to Working For Yourself. Over the next 12-18 months, I started thinking about building the business out a bit more strategically and creating a range of products, so that’s how it came about. It wasn’t really strategic, it wasn’t quite by accident, it just was the natural extension of the blog that I was building.

TB: You mentioned a couple of businesses that came first. Could you maybe talk about them and your background, education, and all of that?

CG: My educational background was in sociology, which was great. It was fun and definitely helped me a lot, but it wasn’t that conducive to employment. And, you know, to get a job as a sociologist you have to have a PhD basically, but I had an undergraduate degree and I had about half of a master’s degree, which doesn’t go very far.

So when I was 20, I was working at FedEx, carrying boxes around. It wasn’t that great of a job. In the morning, I would get up and go to class, so I was really tired. This was 10 years ago. I started a small eBay business, I just started selling some things around my house because I needed some money and I realized I could make about $20-$25 an hour doing that, which was great, because at FedEx I was making $8 an hour.

So, from there I learned how to do a lot of different things. I imported coffee for a while. I sold coffee to distributors, wholesalers. I had that business for about a year. From there, I started helping other people build small businesses on eBay. Again, this was a long time ago when it was much easier to do that. Then I learned how to do web design, did some business strategy consulting. I did some work with Google Adsense and Adwords for a few years.

I wasn’t really building a huge business or anything. My main motivation was: How can I support myself so I don’t have to have a regular job? And then when we moved overseas, my motivation was: How can I support my wife and myself so we can do the volunteer work that we need to do? I’m not trying to get rich, but definitely trying to create some kind of independence. So that’s how all that came about.

TB: You said something interesting, that you’ve worked with eBay sellers to help them set up their businesses in the past. One of the things I’ve noticed about a lot of your products is that they focus on helping people put together the business that can support them, or the resources they need to put together that business. Is there a particular reason you’re interested in that topic?

CG: Well, I think it’s something that a lot of people are interested in. When you can focus on the bigger picture issues, like creating independence, creating freedom, and then relate those to the practical issues of how do you start a small business, how can you create some kind of side income, and then eventually scale that to a full-time income.

That’s what I know how to do, that’s what I’ve done for 10 years, and so I always think it’s important when you’re developing a new business to really look at what you’re good at and what you’re passionate at, and then what other people are also interested in and also passionate about and also, willing to spend money on. So the convergence between those things, self-employment and starting a business, and being location independent or travel the world – it’s something that resonates with a lot of people.

TB: I’d like to get down to some of the specifics of how you operate your business now. How do you put together one of your products? How do you choose a topic? Can you walk us through that process?

CG: Yes, in the beginning it was basically just response to questions. So for a travel product, it’s kind of like people need to do a variety of things to travel the world, or maybe they just need to go home once a year or something. How can we a create a solution that allows them to do that that saves them money? Same thing with the Unconventional Guide to Working for Yourself. It was like: Here’s everything I’ve learned in 10 years of self-employment, here’s basically whatever I can think of in that bucket that I can give.

Now over the next year, I got a little bit more strategic. I started doing some customer surveys where I would present different ideas to my existing customer base or maybe even my blog readership and say: “Here’s where I’m thinking of going, what do you think about this? Here are 5 different ideas, can you rank these ideas?” So that was very helpful figuring out what I’m about and what people are interested in buying.

And I think probably now, at this point, I have the classic entrepreneur problem, which is more ideas than time. There’s all kinds of things that I would love to do and not enough time to do them in everything else that’s happening. So now I mostly just do what I’m motivated to do. I try not to do anything that I’m not motivated to do.

When I create a product I think: “First of all, what is the offer going to be? Because it’s really important to think about the offer right from the beginning. So the offer is the deliverables, what’s going to be included? Is it an ebook? Is it an ebook, plus some kind of multi-media which works really well and creates a value add? How will the product be delivered? What are the main benefits of the product?” Always think about that stuff in the beginning.

Then I get a little more serious about crafting the product and if I’m working with a partner then we decide who’s doing what. If it’s a writing project, then I’ll try to set aside some time to do all the writing, create the audio files, whatever I need to do. Then I build it out over the course of 1-3 months or so.

Then as I’m getting closer to the end, I might look for some other input from people. I might look to create some bonuses, I might look to think a bit more carefully how I’m going to pitch it and what kind of messaging I want to use to get the best response. One of the things that has been really good for me is I try not to have a hard-sell approach. I try to have a very soft-sell approach and a filtering process where I try to be very clear about who is going to be helped through the guide and the product and who is not going to be helped.

And I try to gently steer away anyone who might not be a good fit. That really helps people build up trust. It helps build relationships over the long term. It helps people see: “Okay, maybe this product isn’t the best fit for me, but maybe something else is.” So, that’s one of the things that has helped me. That’s a general overview.

TB: One of the things that really intrigued me about your last couple of launches for Empire Building Kit was that I saw them on a lot of sites that didn’t seem or don’t really do a lot of affiliate marketing reviews or anything like that. Would you talk about how you built that network with a lot of sites that are popular, but aren’t as necessarily as into building the business or that same niche?

CG: I think part of it is just the natural effect of building relationships over time and building influence over time to where I have a pretty good track record now. If I do something, then people are going to pay attention to it. If I offer a way to participate, then people are going to be excited about it. For the first year or so I had an affiliate program, but I really didn’t do anything with it. It was very hands-off. It was like: “Here, you can go and sign up for the affiliate program and you basically have to figure it out yourself.” Which is fine because it’s still there.

But, for this time, with the Empire Building Kit, as you mentioned, I wanted to get a little bit better at that and so I have an affiliate manager now who works with me and he’s actually been contacting everyone who’s signed up for the affiliate program to let them know what’s happening, what the launch is going to be, and how they can participate, and what they need to do.

So that is a little bit more of a hands-on process of individual relationships and trying to show people how they can endorse the product if they so choose and how they can benefit from it. I think it also helps that I’m going to higher priced products now, although it’s still mid-range, but it’s easier to build a profitable affiliate program if the affiliates are really excited about it, if they can get paid more than they would for like a $20 ebook or something.

TB: The other thing about your product launches is you’ve launched a product on a train and you’ve launched a product just before you left for Africa. How do you put together that sort of launch?

CG: It’s funny you mention that. Until recently, I actually tried really hard not to be traveling during a product launch because so many things are happening and also there is the potential for so many things to go wrong that I’ve always wanted to be at home during that time.

But, I also have to balance that with a need to tell a good story. I think storytelling is very, very important in copywriting, and presenting an offer. And also considering the fact that since I’m launching my products from a blog, probably 95% of the blog readers are interested in the product, or they’re not interested in buying something. And that’s fine with me, I don’t want to push them away.

I have to consider if I’m launching a product: How can I keep the attention of everybody else, you know, without kind of harrangig them all the time with sales announcements?

The Empire Kit thing just kept building and building, and it was going to be a really big product, so I asked: “How can I make it fun?” I heard about this Empire Builder Train that goes between Chicago and Portland, and I realized that would also be the day of my birthday, and all these things kept happening, so finally I said: “Well, let’s craft an interesting story and let’s make it fun.” As you said, let’s launch the product from the train. I did that with a friend of mine, another blogger, J.D. Roth.

So it really got people interested and I got fan mail from people who didn’t even want the product, who said: “I don’t even want to buy this, but I’m really enjoying the story.” I had just been in West Africa the week before, then in Europe, then I came to the States, went to Pittsburgh to give a talk, and then went to Chicago to get on the train, so people really liked the story. So I have to figure out the best way to do that because I can’t always launch a product from a train, of course. But it was a lot of fun.

TB: It was definitely something that I watched very closely. It was a great story.

CG: Thanks.

TB: Did you run into any problems? Any logistical concerns when you actually did that?

CG: I was really worried because you just never know, and this was my biggest product launch ever, and I’m going to be on a train, which obviously doesn’t have any Internet, so I tried to compensate as best as I could. I have a MiFi that I travel with and I got a second MiFi as a backup and had multiple laptops and cellphones.

That was the weekend the iPad came out, so J.D. Roth, the guy I was traveling with had an iPad, so we joked that we had our own little Apple store on there on the Amtrack train, which is kind of funny because Amtrack is pretty low-tech. So, actually it worked out pretty well. I would say that we had a couple of issues. We had some dead spots in a few places. But, overall, it worked out as well as I could have expected and as well as I could have hoped. So, overall I was really happy.

I’m trying to think if there had been any other problems. I run into little issues all the time, especially now with the business getting bigger and the blog readership going up, I definitely feel the imperative to always be online and I have to balance that with the travel I want to do and the time it takes to travel, and the fatigue. I also want to make sure that I have a good travel experience.

I mean, I try not to complain about these things because if I complain, I realize that I have a great life. It’s just so much fun. I’m thrilled that I’m able to do this. So I just try to take the problems as they come and work with them the best I can.

TB: Are there any tools that you’ve found useful to work with when you’re out on the road?

CG: Well, I pretty much do everything, my entire business and writing career, and whatever else it is, is managed entirely on my MacBook, just the one laptop. So, I’m moving towards more online services like a lot of people, just because that makes it easier.

I’m trying to think of some specific things that I use. I’m really pretty low-tech. Like I said, in the States, I like my MiFi so that I can have a hotspot anywhere, that is fun. It only works in the states for now, but I think they’re getting a global version at some point. Otherwise, I just try to keep it pretty simple and don’t use a lot of tools or high tech stuff.

TB: I’ve seen that you do a lot of videos and a lot of hosts from airports or while you’re in an airplane, or otherwise traveling. How do you make sure that you stay productive in all those different places while it’s probably pretty hard to maintain a routine across several kinds of… ?

CG: Yes, it is. And that work routine is good because I don’t have the same kind of routine that a lot of freelancers, or a lot of self-employed people have, where they like set aside certain hours to work on certain projects or certain activities, you know from 8am to 11am, or whatever it is.

I think that is helpful, it’s just not really possible for me with all of the travel and different timezones. So instead of a specific routine based on hours, I just try to instill the really strong habit or the discipline to continually create and continually work. Not in a workaholic way, but in a way that’s rewarding and meaningful.

So I just try to make sure I’m always writing, make sure I’m always creating something, whether it’s a product, or a blog post, or a book I’m writing. I’ve just found as a creative, and I think a lot of creatives can relate to this, if I don’t create for awhile, I’m going to start feeling bad. It’s kind of like exercise. Like once you get into a good exercise routine, then it kind feels bad to break that for more than a day or two.

I like what Seth Godin says. His definition of creativity is: “Creativity is an instinct to produce.” And I know that not everyone likes that statement, and people feel they have some different definitions and that’s fine, but I relate to that one. And I like that one and I just feel like every day, no matter where I am, I have to. I set a standard for myself. I try to write at least 500 words a day, usually about 1,000 words a day.

I try to clear most of my email. I do get behind. I try to clear most of my email every day, try to do my blog comments, do my Twitter stuff, my Facebook stuff, whatever.

So I guess it helps because I really like what I do. If I didn’t like what I did, it might be a lot harder. But for the most part, I really enjoy it.

TB: I know that you have a book coming out this fall and a book tour to go with it. Would you tell us a little about the book and maybe a little bit on how working on your book was different than working on your Unconventional Guides?

CG: Working on the book was much different. I had done a lot of writing before, but I had never written a full-length book. And I definitely did realize that it is a different animal, so I really respect authors that write books regularly. I think that I like the shorter format better, maybe the medium format, although I do plan on writing more books. So, that was fun.

I wrote that book last year and it’s coming out this September 7. It’s called The Art of Non-Conformity. And it’s a longer version of some of the manifestos I’ve written about how to do what you want, and also how to change the world and make the world a better place for others. So, I try to blend a high-level look at that with a practical look at how does that work, what does that look like.

When it comes out in September, I’m going to begin an Unconventional Book Tour, where I go to visit all 50 states and then in Janauary 2011, all 10 provinces in Canada, as well. I call it an Unconventional Book Tour because I want it to be not boring. I want it to actually be interactive and collectively organized through Twitter and Facebook.

And so, right now we’re recording this interview in June, so I’m just trying to figure out what it’s going to look like. It terrifies me actually because I’m a shy, introverted person and getting ready to do 63 meet-ups in a row, in all kinds of different cities, but I think that it’s going to be really fun also. I think that it’s going to be good. So, that’s my next project.

TB: How are you planning to handle your business while you’re focusing on the book?

CG: Well, a lot of the business, I don’t really use that word “passive” because I think that word is overused. There’s still things you have to do to run any business for the most part. But, having said that, a lot of the business does run itself. When I’m not actively developing a new product, or new projects, then it doesn’t take a great deal of time. I’ve scheduled it to where last fall I started thinking about what 2010 was going to look like.

I decided for the first half of the year, it was going to be a really intensive business development schedule. I’ve done that with the new products and I have one more coming out here. But, the second half of the year is going to focus mostly on this book and the book tour and so I’m actually not launching any other products for the rest of 2010, so basically the whole focus is the book and meeting the readers and gearing up for some other things in 2011. I guess I’m backing off a little bit on the business development for the rest of the year so I can focus on that.

TB: I only have one more question and that’s if you had to give a piece of advice to somebody who wanted to become an entrepreneur, who’s just starting out, what would you tell them a good starting point was?

CG: I would go back to that point we talked about: convergence. I would say it’s great to build a business around your passion, but that’s also a topic that’s oversimplified sometimes. I think when we talk about passion and passion in business, I always have mixed feelings because on the one hand I’m really excited about it because my business is oriented around my passion, and I know lots and lots of businesses that are very successful with that.

But at the same time, it can’t just be any passion. It has to be a passion that other people are also excited about and willing to spend money on.

TB: Can you tell our listeners where they can find you?

CG: Sure, I’m Chris Guillebeau at chrisguillebeau.com, and on Twitter.

TB: Thanks for talking with us today.

CG: Thanks, Thursday, I appreciate it.